Curse

Ensign · Apr 23, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

There's a lot to look at here, some of it good, some of it...not so much. We'll get to all of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Bonders give way to ritualists, through and through. This is especially so due to the great amount of enchantment removal going around, and enchantments will be twice as easy to remove once factions comes out.

This is an exceedingly common mistake being made by players all over. The amount of enchantment removal that you'll see in game is not going to increase overnight just because there are more skills that remove enchantments in the game. The number of options might have increased, but the number of skill slots that you can actually put those options in *has not*. Enchantments only become easier to remove if the power of the removal of itself has increased significantly. I think that clearly is not the case - some of the single removal options are comparable to Shatter/Drain Enchantment but are noticibly better, Gaze is on the order of a Rend, and elite removals have slightly different but comparable roles to Lingering Curse.

In other words, the only reason you're going to see more enchantment removal out of someone post-expansion is because they feel the need to devote more slots to it. With the addition of ritualists as non-enchantment, proactive defensive options, I would actually expect the percieved need for enchantment removal to *go down*.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Spirits don't need energy management and cannot be negated with a single skill.

If spirits are going to be as significant a defensive force as a bonder is, and they very well may be, you would have to be crazy to assume that the ritualist laying them down is going to be able to do so without disruption. Also you should not gloss over the inherent costs that any ritualist has to pay - even if he isn't being restricted by energy, all of his spirits come with five second cast times, but the real kicker is those recharges. Sixty second recharges are simply not going to cut it against any sort of disruption. Certainly there are elites that will make it possible to work around that drawback...but having to focus slots on solving your recharge problem is comparable to having to solve your energy problem with a bonder.

Not that I think that energy costs are trivial for a ritualist. Unlike virtually all ranger spirits, most of the spirits you want to drop as a ritualist cost 10-15. That's going to add up quickly if you don't have any way to manage that cost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Martyr, yes. Extinguish, I feel, is in some ways even better than martyr. Extinguish removes one condition, rather than transfers them.

You fundamentally do not understand Martyr if you think it doesn't remove conditions. The only situations in which you'd consider running Martyr are those in which normal, single target condition removal cannot keep up. This *only* happens when you have people actively spreading conditions. What you have to understand is that by consolidating conditions you are removing a ton of them. If your entire team is suffering from bleeding, a cast of Martyr doesn't just move all of them, it *eliminates* seven of them and leaves but a single copy. The same goes for poison, or blind against the right teams.

Also do not underestimate the value of pulling multiple conditions. Most of the conditions you really want to pull will be buried by something else, and against a team with large numbers of conditions a single removal is likely to do little more than pull the chaff off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Of course, 90% of martyr's usefulness is against disease, but when it is transferred, the martyr often just ends up respreading it to teammates. Extinguish solves that little inconvenience.

Disease is the strength of Extinguish IMO. Against other conditions I expect it to underperform, but against disease it's particularly strong because even if a character or two had their disease covered, they won't reinfect the rest of the team. Martyr on the other hand has to be carefully positioned to avoid massive reinfection of the entire team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Considering it would take 40 energy to remove a team disease otherwise, yes.

This comparison isn't exactly fair because you never spend 40 energy to 'just' remove disease. Every single condition removal is going to have some side benefits as well - if you're using Mend Condition to remove all that disease for instance you're looking at getting several hundred points of healing out of the exchange.

The real saver is time. You can't keep up with a disease cloud using only a single removal - the cast times and recharges just don't allow it, and disease gets to keep working the whole time. Extinguish/Martyr get it off quickly, saving energy from degen that isn't coming on top of the obvious time bonus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Signet of devotion, one of my favorite skills. I may have been premature saying it was time to say goodbye to this one, but it seems to me that on a healer, signet of rejuvenation is clearly the better option.

Well if one is specced significantly in healing and not all that highly in divine favor, I would hope that the healing skill would outperform the divine favor skill. However if both are reasonably specced I don't think the choice is clear at all. The biggest thing I see is that Signet of Rejuvenation is worthless as a self heal - it is impossible to get the bonus to ever trigger. Also the amount of raw healing you can get out of Signet of Devotion is significantly higher than Signet of Rejuvenation, even if healing has a much higher spec. If you're a pure healing with no secondary (16 healing, 13 divine favor) a Signet of Devotion used on recharge is going to heal for 763 every minute. Signet of Rejuvenation, even if you can get the bonus to trigger every time, is only going to return 638.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

On a boon prot it may be difficult to fit in given the several new, amazing, mid-energy prot skills.

I'm sorry but this sentence doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense. Signet of Rejuvenation is a healing skill. It has no place whatsoever on a boon *prot* monk. Similarly I am confused by your reference to 'several' new prot skills. There are a grand total of three new protection skills (once you pull out Extinguish and the elites), and one of them, Reverse Hex, can be immediately discarded as garbage.

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Originally Posted by Byron

Spirit bond may yet replace infuse health, but that is yet to be seen.

This similarly does not make any sense to me. Spirit Bond is a skill that's comparable to Protective Spirit, not Infuse Health.

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Originally Posted by Byron

Ray of judgment makes smites perhaps worth taking, as do the new signets.

I'm hesitant to make sweeping statements about skills without experience playing with or against them, but I have no qualms about dismissing Ray of Judgment as unconditional garbage already. It is simply outclassed by too many existing skills to ever be worth considering.

You did it again, too, with signet*s*. Smiting got a new *signet*. I happen to like the skill, but its presence only solidifies Signet of Judgment as the smiter's elite of choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Heal other, first of all, is 10 energy. I'm not a fan of the skill in the first place.

I'm assuming that you're a Word of Healing fan then? Understand that Word of Healing, while a very good skill, really is just a conditional Heal Other that costs 5 less to cast.

Saying you're not a fan of the skill really discredits your opinions on healing monks in my eyes, though. If you aren't running Word of Healing you absolutely need Heal Other to be a competent healer.

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Originally Posted by Byron

Ethereal light is 5 energy, but heals for ~110 at 16 healing. Heal other is 190.

Take Divine Favor into account to get realistic numbers. If you use a triplespec healer with a super, which is a pretty good approximation, you're looking at roughly 215 from Word or Other, 135 from Light or Whisper, 130 from Touch, 105 from Orison, and 95+20/ from Kiss.

Pure healer, double-specced with super, would be 232 from Word or Other, 147 from Ethereal Light or Healing Touch, 146 from Healing Light or Whisper, 115 from Orison of Healing, and 105 from Kiss.

In percentages, Whisper/Light heal for a bit better than 25% more than Orison, and a bit less than 2/3 of what you get from an Other or Word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Thing is, Ethereal light can be cast on yourself, and despite it being easily interruptable, the advantages outweigh.

The problem with Ethereal Light is that it becomes completely unreliable in any situation of stress. If you are being attacked it is absolutely useless - if you're trying to keep someone else alive with this, it's going to start getting ugly as soon as the other team realizes what you're doing. Where the skill shines is during garbage time, when the stress on the team isn't particularly high. It may very well be worth running on a healer because of its garbage time efficiency, but it absolutely cannot be the main heal. It is, at best, the third heal on the bar, competing with Dwayna's Kiss for the slot, or perhaps with Orison of Healing on a build with Touch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

It's better to spam orison when kiting a warrior anyway, IMO.

Using Orison on yourself when kiting a single warrior is not a particularly strong play. You're giving him at least two hits by stopping, which without skills are worth around 70 damage on their own. You also open yourself up to skill damage or the disruption that comes with it. In any case you're generally trading 5 energy for around 40-50 healing against a decent warrior, which isn't exactly good.

Using Orison on yourself when kiting multiple warriors is a downright terrible trade. You'll generally take more damage than you'll heal for from stopping, plus cost yourself energy in the exchange. This is one of the reasons to use Healing Touch in more stressed backlines, as you can reliably use it on yourself with a warrior attacking you and still get a decent exchange.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Devestating hammer is almost certainly dead. With the very easy, low-cost chain of Forceful hammer-> Heavy Blow-> Crushing blow, you gain a net +100 damage, deep wound, and KD.

I don't understand where you come off saying this at all. That chain only requires you to charge 6 adrenaline instead of 7, and deals 42 more damage in 3 hits - but it also costs you three seconds of knockdown, and the hits that you get in during them. As I consider knockdowns to be the primary reason to run a hammer in the first place this doesn't seem like a particularly good trade.

That's not to say that it won't have any role anywhere, because it probably will, especially in a multi-warrior spike. But replace Devastating Hammer? You have to be out of your mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Ah, yes.. hundred blades. I'm a fan of that skill, especially with buff stacking(Signet of Strength!) or adrenaline shouts. But with the new elites, it becomes virtually useless.

I can't agree with that at all. Hundred Blades is still the 'spike' elite, by a landslide - Quivvering Blade may be a much better version of Cleave but Cleave was never sold as a spike elite, and Dragon Slash, while a solid skill that should spawn some interesting builds, has minimal spike potential on top of being unplayable alongside Final Thrust. Both of the new elites are better on their own - Hundred Blades is rather poor alone - but in any build stacking buffs Hundred Blades is going to outperform both of these by a landslide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

How about Galrath->Silverwing->Dragon for a +120 net combo?

Sever -> Gash is better and takes up less skill slots. The value of Dragon is not as part of the combo itself, but for its ability to set up very fast combos. It's not Sever -> Gash -> Dragon, it's Sever -> Gash, switch target, Dragon hit hit, Sever -> Gash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Healing Whisper will replcae Healing Touch, not Heal Other...Half Casting range is no thx, but the 1s recharge and big heal does make it very attractive as a self heal.

Healing Whisper is target other ally. The only skill it's really competing with for a slot is Dwayna's Kiss, and that's not one I think it's going to win often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

As for hammers, I remain unimpressed by anything that factions has to offer in this department.

Several of these look like PvE skills, which probably won't make people give up a shield but it's something they need to do. Now for PvP, Enraged Smash is at least interesting. Fill up your bar with adrenal attacks you won't neccessarily use, and every other normal attack you make hits for 100. With Dark Fury, *every* attack you make hits for 100. I'm not about to call it the new metagame or anything, but it is something that will give me pause.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

This is pretty off-topic, and more of an aside, but Ritual Lord(Spawning Power, classified as a "Elite Skill", so nothing will take it off of you) at 12 reduces the recharge on spirirts by 63%. Seeing as most binding rituals are near 45-60 second recharge, you don't need oath shot to be able to "spam" spirits.

The thing about Oath Shot is that it also gets you Expertise, which solves any energy issues you might have had as well as your recharge problem. A ritualist primary can take care of recharges using Soul Twisting or Ritual Lord, but if they run into an energy wall (and given the price of some of these spirits that's not all that unlikely) they'll be better off turning into an Oath Shot guy.

Peace,
-CxE

Neo-LD · Apr 23, 2006, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Disease is the strength of Extinguish IMO. Against other conditions I expect it to underperform, but against disease it's particularly strong because even if a character or two had their disease covered, they won't reinfect the rest of the team. Martyr on the other hand has to be carefully positioned to avoid massive reinfection of the entire team.

Martyr/Extinguish can clean your entire team of disease, but because you cant cure the enemy team, and they're bound to have contracted some of it, isnt it be safe to say that they will reinfect you anyways?

Though the situation is not very common, I think extinguish will be absolutely amazing against a ranger impresonating RenO's. Spread poison all you like, its all gone in one spell

Extinguish is already making me shy even more away from condtion based degen.

Ensign · Apr 24, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Martyr/Extinguish can clean your entire team of disease, but because you cant cure the enemy team, and they're bound to have contracted some of it, isnt it be safe to say that they will reinfect you anyways?

You can only be infected once by a single disease cloud. You need a new disease cloud to reinfect someone after it's been removed.

Martyr moves the disease, but the moved disease is a new one and can reinfect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Though the situation is not very common, I think extinguish will be absolutely amazing against a ranger impresonating RenO's...Extinguish is already making me shy even more away from condtion based degen.

Extinguish existing shouldn't stop you from running degen any more than Martyr existing should. If you start seeing it played often you might want to reconsider, but until it ends up on skill bars instead of just skill lists it's not something to really worry about.

Peace,
-CxE

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 24, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

I can't see Ritualists replacing monks as primary healers. Their heals are too slow and inefficent without Divine Favor to really serve as part of two or three-character backline.

I think where you'll see them mainly is utility characters that act defensively. A Restoration/Communing ritualist would fit very well into the spot where you currently see Flashbots. Some nice warrior hate with Shadowsong and Soothing, and the attacking spirits which attack nearby foes make a nice incentive not to Frenzy.

In the meantime, they can provide a lot of defensive utility with skills like Shelter and Union. Recuperation has been compared to Mending, but the healing it gives is the equivilant of a 10-spec Heal Party over the course of every 10 seconds, making it a great counter to degen and spread damage. Such a character could also contribute effectively to a spike.

The biggest problem I've found with a lot of ritualist skills is that a lot of them would only be really good if set into the middle of the opposing team, and Ritualists are too soft to effectively extend that far. Something like Disenchantment or Dissonance would be great to have on the opponent's backline or midline, but it simply isn't feasable to do so most of the time. You end up hitting warriors, which isn't nearly as effective.

Overall I think they'll be a nice utility character with defensive potential, but by no means a monk replacement.

glountz · Apr 24, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

This is an exceedingly common mistake being made by players all over. The amount of enchantment removal that you'll see in game is not going to increase overnight just because there are more skills that remove enchantments in the game. The number of options might have increased, but the number of skill slots that you can actually put those options in *has not*. Enchantments only become easier to remove if the power of the removal of itself has increased significantly. I think that clearly is not the case - some of the single removal options are comparable to Shatter/Drain Enchantment but are noticibly better, Gaze is on the order of a Rend, and elite removals have slightly different but comparable roles to Lingering Curse.
In other words, the only reason you're going to see more enchantment removal out of someone post-expansion is because they feel the need to devote more slots to it. With the addition of ritualists as non-enchantment, proactive defensive options, I would actually expect the percieved need for enchantment removal to *go down*.

I would add that Spirits can be destroyed with no particular skill, whereas enchants need an enchant removal. Send your warrs hit the most annoying ones, and that's ok (especially with this long cast/long recharge ratio). In fact, I find a spirit easier to remove than a enchant, if they are spammed along the fight and not prelaid down, that is. One spirit comes, shoot him etc...
I find also the Ritualist really open to interrupts. Any successful interrupt (rather easy with all these long cast times) will hurt with these recharges. That stucks the spirit spammer ritualist with mesmer secondary to avoid interrupts.
And I would add that the bonder has the most essential thing a Rit lacks: mobility. A bonder can follow his teamates wherever he wants. Rit's spirits cannot.
Finally, I don't find it's relevant to compare bonders to rits. They simply don't work the same way IMO.

suiraCLAW · Apr 24, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

martyr is elite, extinguish isn't -> martyr will almost never be used anymore (probably). But I need to agree: Martyr is better, but still: it isn't worth an elite slot if you see what extinguish does...

about hundred blades: sun and moon slash in way better then hundred blades, it doesn't matter if there are buffs or not... Hundred blades is made to get adrenaline, something that dragon slash can do much better and faster.

BTW: rit's spirits can follow party (draw spirit ftw)

Byron · Apr 24, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxForgexX

you obviously haven't noticed a nifty little Mesmer skill called Unnatural Signet

If that makes a mesmer or two take out an e-deny or domination skill for that signet, then it may be worth it. Nice that its a signet so fast-casting doesn't apply, or I could see a mesmer taking down a spirit in under 2 seconds with a yawn. But you are right, I did forget it. That will likely be standard equipment in 8v8, since it may be the only way to get around sprit hiding/trapping/spamming. Also a great tool for anti-IWAY (huzzah!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Healing Whisper will replcae Healing Touch, not Heal Other.

Agreed in spirit. I'm still a fan of ethereal light, and looking forward to putting it into practice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

Hammer warrior combo, is that gonna change the hammer warrior to the Charge!

Nay, forceful is an elite, otherwise hammer would be the new axe.

And thank goodness we got Ensign here to straighten my sh*t out. His presence ensures a long, healthy thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The amount of enchantment removal that you'll see in game is not going to increase overnight just because there are more skills that remove enchantments in the game. The number of options might have increased, but the number of skill slots that you can actually put those options in *has not*.

Oh, I wouldn't make that mistake. The mistake I did make was over-estimating the new monk prots. Life sheath on a boon/prot seemed like borderline cheating - it is, after all, much like a multi-hit super RoF, for 5 energy. Its elite, yes, but we got inspired thingies for that. Spirit bond is pretty nifty against ranger, rainbow, or ele spikes, considering .25s cast time and 2s recharge. But, meh - on second review, they aren't so great. Good teams have little trouble removing sustained enchantments, so as Ensign says, enchant removal probably won't be much effected, but may in fact decline as the role of the ritualist rises.

As for the ritualist roles, I'm sure similar things were said for ranger spirits and/or traps in beta. I'm sure there are tricks to get around being interrupted, managing energy, and long cast times. As you say, and I agree with, ritualists can't afford to be ignored. They may even be the new target of choice, if you ask me.

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Also do not underestimate the value of pulling multiple conditions.

I guess I took it for granted that the primary advantage of extinguish over martyr is its non-elite status. I certainly hope that martyr would be better. However, I do stand by my claim that most of martyr's effectiveness is against disease, and disease can be cleared just as easily by extinguish. As for buried conditions(I assume you had deep wound in mind), its then possible to have restore conditions and extinguish on the same monk (FTW, obviously. muhaha)

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If you're a pure healing with no secondary (16 healing, 13 divine favor) a Signet of Devotion used on recharge is going to heal for 763 every minute. Signet of Rejuvenation, even if you can get the bonus to trigger every time, is only going to return 638.

I'm really glad to see those numbers crunched; they'll help me and other players greatly, no doubt. But yes, I had erred in assuming a mesmer secondary for energy management, which would bring DF down considerably. Your point has been irrevocably made, and I see that signet of devotion is still amazing. Outstanding.

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Similarly I am confused by your reference to 'several' new prot skills...and one of them, Reverse Hex, can be immediately discarded as garbage

And indeed, so may shield guardian be trash. Shield guardian turns into a 10 energy RoF - i don't know what Anet was thinking there. I guess its the aoe potential. So, I didnt disregard the elites: life sheath, as I've already said, is hot stuff. Spirit bond could do wonders against spike- based builds. But this is all irreleveant since the signet of devotion argument is concluded.

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I'm assuming that you're a Word of Healing fan then?

While I like WoH, thats not the reason I dislike heal other. You make a valid point of it, though. Oooh, but 10 energy seems like an awful lot. Of course, for essential things like prot spirit, I can see that. If your packing an elite for e-management(I would assume e-drain), then heal other may have a place. Thing is, in order to maximize the effect, your healing target has to be below 1/2 health; if you let a target get to 1/2, and assumed that there wouldn't be a spike (to warrant not healing the target sooner), then you probably dont have 10+ energy to blow, IMHO. That's why I never liked heal other - i'd be just as eager to pack infuse. Energy is precious, yes? Is there some situation that I'm overlooking?

Quote:

You did it again, too, with signet*s*. Smiting got a new *signet*.

Yes, I made a pretty dumb error lumping in Judgement and Bane with Signet of Rage. Certainly those arent new, but may have new life given the appearance of the new signet with big warrior hate-capability.

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but in any build stacking buffs Hundred Blades is going to outperform both of these by a landslide.

I guess you arent familiar with my "Conjure Lightning->Hundred Blades->Sun and Moon Slash" fetish.

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Hundred Blades is still the 'spike' elite, by a landslide

God, yes! But that's if your using a sword as the primary warrior on a spike build(er...).

I'd like to say more, but duty f*cking calls.

Ensign · Apr 24, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Agreed in spirit. I'm still a fan of ethereal light, and looking forward to putting it into practice.

It's something I want to test as well, I think it has some potential but I'm really wary of relying on it. Basically it needs to be the 3rd heal on your bar, alongside Heal Other/Word and a reliable self heal (Healing Touch preferably, maybe Orison). The advantage it has if it works is pretty significant - while Orison isn't very efficient on top of being slow, Ethereal Light is efficient and something that you'd want to be casting to heal people.

My concern with the skill is that if the easily interrupted part becomes relevant the skill becomes poor quickly. I don't think you can even look at it in terms of efficiency, like 10% interrupt rate is ok because you're still getting more HPE than from Orison. The problem is that unlike offensive spells, mishaps on your defense don't miss on a kill, they get you killed. If people are taking deaths from Ethereal Light getting interrupted, while another, less efficient heal would have kept them alive, I can't justify putting it on my bar.

Again it's something with a good amount of potential, but I'm wary of that drawback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

The mistake I did make was over-estimating the new monk prots. Life sheath on a boon/prot seemed like borderline cheating - it is, after all, much like a multi-hit super RoF, for 5 energy.

It doesn't reverse the damage, it just prevents it - unless it expires from time you know exactly how much health you're getting out of it. It is nice and efficient for the healing it provides. I don't think it's remotely playable on a boonprot, those guys are far too expensive to try and run without an energy elite. On an active protter? Maybe. The effect is undercosted enough that you're netting a pip and a half in efficiency, roughly. That's pretty blah for an elite on its own, but if the side benefits of the skill outweigh it (particularly the time benefit) I can see running it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Spirit bond is pretty nifty against ranger, rainbow, or ele spikes, considering .25s cast time and 2s recharge. But, meh - on second review, they aren't so great.

Well Spirit Bond is definitely comparable to Protective Spirit, and is better in several situations. It's certainly good enough to see competitive play. I don't think you can not run enchantments because they might get shattered - unless you're already so light on enchants that you'd be giving them a use for an otherwise dead skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

And indeed, so may shield guardian be trash. Shield guardian turns into a 10 energy RoF - i don't know what Anet was thinking there. I guess its the aoe potential.

Yeah you're really paying for a hard to use AoE heal with that one - it doesn't heal when it lands, it heals at some time in the future when it triggers, which you really can't control too well. Someone will probably find a use for it but it seems really unwieldly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

While I like WoH, thats not the reason I dislike heal other. You make a valid point of it, though. Oooh, but 10 energy seems like an awful lot.

Is it really all that much when you consider that it heals for more than twice what Orison of Healing would do, and that it lands faster as well? Using Heal Other on someone doesn't hurt the amount you can heal with your energy at all. But the speed is absolutely vital IMO. One Heal Other delivers to a target in .75 seconds what two crappy, 5 energy heals would deliver is 2.75 seconds. At no cost to energy efficiency. Not only does that make it the only good tool you have for keeping a focused target alive, but it also gives the skill excellent slot efficiency. If the standard is 5 energy junk heals, Heal Other is two skills in one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

If your packing an elite for e-management(I would assume e-drain), then heal other may have a place.

Well that begs the question of what you're running on a healer if it's not an elite power heal, and not energy management, does it not? I'd guess the answer is that you're the spellbreaker bitch for HoH - and if that's the case, I'd have to ask what you're planning on actually healing people with if it's not Heal Other - another Orison turret? =/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Thing is, in order to maximize the effect, your healing target has to be below 1/2 health; if you let a target get to 1/2

Well I will grant you that if you're playing monk and sitting there waiting for damage to arrive so that you can heal it, then it probably doesn't make a lick of difference what heals you have on your bar.

You never have to wait for someone to get to half though. Quite often you get knocked down or blacked out or something big lands and bam, someone's missing a chunk of life wanting a Heal Other. If warriors are beating on someone you don't have to wait for them to get low, you know the damage is going to arrive so just fire off the Other ASAP to keep him alive. You don't wait until someone's on the brink of death to infuse, why would you wait for Word or Other either? Word of course is even better in these situations, because if they drop below half when it finishes casting they get a fat heal, while if they don't drop below, well, who cares?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

That's why I never liked heal other - i'd be just as eager to pack infuse. Energy is precious, yes? Is there some situation that I'm overlooking?

Well sure you're going to pack Infuse for spike situations, but why would you compare it to Heal Other? Infuse has terrible efficiency. You need it against spikes to even try and get a heal in, but in normal play you're basically spending 20+ energy on an infuse to keep someone from dying. Against a team that applies pressure you want to use it sparingly, because if energy is getting taxed Infusing is only going to make it worse.

The situation you're overlooking is *every non-spike team*. You know, the ones that deal lots of damage to people that you want to heal as efficiently as possible. What you don't seem to be understanding is that Heal Other, on top of being so much faster than the 5 energy junk, is *more efficient* as well. I mean is it really inconceivable that there are situations where you want to heal faster than Orison spam without losing efficiency?

You do understand that Orison of Healing is the least efficient healing skill in the entire healing line, and that you making some comment about energy being precious while advocating not using Heal Other just confuses the hell out of me? If you think Heal Other is energy inefficient, and won't use Orison or Kiss for the same reason...well, what exactly are you trying to heal people with?

Peace,
-CxE

Greedy Gus · Apr 24, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

On the topic of new monk elites, does air of enchantment interest anyone, possibly on one boon prot in a 2-monk backline?

Air of Enchantment {E}
For 4-9 seconds, enchantments cast on target ally cost 5 less energy. This is an elite skill.
5/.25/5

Could this be realistically run on a boon prot in place of a more direct energy management elite? Unless I'm misunderstanding the mechanics of the spell, it seems to me that even with boon up, if you had 5 energy you could launch this at someone (getting the ~120 or so heal), then dump as many guardians, RoFs, and holy veils at them as you want, for free (though the boon energy drain would clean up any naturally regened energy). And your other monk could cast his spells for free as well, just losing energy to boon.

I don't play monks often, but it seems that this could be quite useful as energy management if used properly, especially when pre-protting a target. Also looks like it would fare very well in a heavy energy denial environment.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 24, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

You have a bit of misinformation there, Gus. Air of Enchantment is target other ally, which inhibits its usefulness quite a bit.

Running it in the betas I didn't find it as useful as Energy Drain on my boon prot, though it may be that I simply wasn't practiced at using it. It really weakened my ability to counter any kind of spread damage, and when the opposition changed targets agressively I found myself unable to counter them. Once the enemy started targeting me I went down quickly without support.

IMHO, there are better choices for Boon prots, but Air of Enchantment will be extremely good on an active prot in a 3-monk backline. The active prot can pump them out on any target being pressured, greatly relieving the burden on the other monks, while the healing won't seriously suffer from lack of energy against quick changes of target.

The other use for Air of Enchantment is the revival of smiting. It should be perfectly feasable to spam Reversal and Balth's on a warrior again, though whether the damage numbers would work out remains to be seen.

Greedy Gus · Apr 24, 2006, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

You have a bit of misinformation there, Gus. Air of Enchantment is target other ally, which inhibits its usefulness quite a bit.

Bah, I should know better than to trust gwo's skill descriptions

Still, you don't find that similar to calling word of healing a weak skill because it's target other? To me, they're decently similar, elite energy management in the form of healing (plus damage mitigation in the boon prot's case), but target other ally. I guess AE is more of a time investment, due to it's energy management coming from dumping one or two more spells onto that same target, but it also assists a second boon prot if they were to cast RoF/Guardian on the target.

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Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Once the enemy started targeting me I went down quickly without support.

I don't really get this. You don't lose out on any self-heals by running AE over ED/MoR/OoB, you still have your RoF/Guardian, and you still have the rest of your backline supporting you. It's simply a different way of managing your energy through casting, rather than actively creating a clump of energy via MoR/ED. Maybe you're right in that it's not very usable, or maybe you just need more practice with a different style of energy management

ump · Apr 24, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Wow. I was going to reply to some of the statements from the first page and then I got to Ensign's posts. He covered everything that I was thinking and a lot more. It's good to know that someone like me has a lot of the same assessments as somelike like him.

To stay on topic, I think Blessed Light seems like a better utility to run most of the time than Word of Healing especially if you handle spikes with another skill (like Infuse Health). Also, Deny Hexes gives Remove Hex and Smite Hex a run for it's money in certain builds. I also like Etheral Light as my Orision of Healing replacement as my "top-off healing spell when I don't have a better spell for the given situation" slot. Ritualists that rely on spirits are going to have limited uses and the mobile ones will have more of an impact.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 24, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Still, you don't find that similar to calling word of healing a weak skill because it's target other? To me, they're decently similar, elite energy management in the form of healing (plus damage mitigation in the boon prot's case), but target other ally. I guess AE is more of a time investment, due to it's energy management coming from dumping one or two more spells onto that same target, but it also assists a second boon prot if they were to cast RoF/Guardian on the target.

It seems similar to Word of Healing, but in practice I found it didn't work out that way. Word of Healing is a single super-efficent spell you can throw around when someone's low and needs a quick heal. Air of Enchantment relies on a lot of other spells to be effective, so it's only really good if you can be sure the enemy is going to focus one target.

This makes it uber for throwing on a flag runner or a Ghostly Hero, but somewhat lacking in countering damage from a lot of sources on different targets. You want to use Air of Enchantment in the same way you typically use prot spirit - throw it on someone who's gonna get focused as a pre-prot, but don't rely on it to quickly heal the damage of warriors running around. If the opposition is using Air of Enchantment, you can simply change targets agressively to invalidate their energy management.

That's why I suggest putting it on an active prot. Active prots largely exist for situations where an individual characters is going to be focused and needs protection in advance. Air of Enchantment fits perfectly onto their skillbar and mindset, by making it much easier for the other monks to save a target.

This problem is amplified by the fact that a focused target is typically getting enchantment removal anyway. You can't say for certain if that AE will stay on or get stripped, but energy hungry Boon prots need that energy management either way. AE is taking the slot of Energy Drain, so if I'm going to use it it should provide consistent returns to match up to Energy Drain. On a boon prot doing normal healing, I'm not convinced this would happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I don't really get this. You don't lose out on any self-heals by running AE over ED/MoR/OoB, you still have your RoF/Guardian, and you still have the rest of your backline supporting you. It's simply a different way of managing your energy through casting, rather than actively creating a clump of energy via MoR/ED. Maybe you're right in that it's not very usable, or maybe you just need more practice with a different style of energy management

Agreed that it may be a practice issue, but my point was on Air of Enchantment's inability to target yourself. If you're the character being focused you can still self-heal, but you'll be doing it without elite energy management and you'll run dry quickly.

The obvious solution is to run it on multiple monks, so every character can have an Air of Enchantment thrown their way when it's needed. This works, but again you're sacrificing other forms of EM, meaning that you'll be less prepared to counter spread damage or adrenal spikes.

I think it's a great skill that will be incredibly powerful in the right builds, but difficult to justify on a backline of two boon prots.

Thom · Apr 24, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

It is very early to heavily analyze the roll of ritualist and spirits in competitive PvP. The concept forces a slow methodical type of play which has yet to be fully exploited. Consider a group of 8 ritualists running a 4-4 split with the goal of establishing an aggressive forward position. Even in an 4v8 situation, spirits allow some control over the pace of battle. IMO a ritualist maximizes synergy in groups of 3-4, allowing one such group to develop a "base" in a location of their choosing is simply bad. Similarly fighting 4v4 doesn't seem like a great idea either (at least conceptually). Possibly the worst thing you can do is turtle.

Point being, skills define tactics as much as tactics define skills used. My first look at ritualist was all about transfering what I knew about monking to a ritualist. That was the wrong approach.

Large passive defenses(bonding) were underdeveloped in prophecies and ritualists are meant largely to address that niche. While success is impossible to predict, Ritualist mechanics reflect some popular mainstream trends in damage control: large heals, global heals, damage reduction, so I'm optimistic about effects on gameplay.

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 24, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

The idea that Ritualist spirits will be useless in GvG because they have to be set in advance is foolish at best.

Recognize that Ritualist spirits sidestep a lot of the issues that ranger spirits currently suffer from. They're much harder to kill, and they don't require sacrificing a character for some effect which hits both teams - spirit Ritualists have a number of means to ensure that they can recast their spirits when needed, which should allow them to move in battle without any great difficulty. You aren't limited to one position or base because your spirits are set up there, and while spirits can certainly be used to make assaulting a specific location more difficult, they can be set on any mobile midline or backline to have powerful defensive effects without a lot of setup time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Large passive defenses(bonding) were underdeveloped in prophecies and ritualists are meant largely to address that niche. While success is impossible to predict, Ritualist mechanics reflect some popular mainstream trends in damage control: large heals, global heals, damage reduction, so I'm optimistic about effects on gameplay.

Ritualists definitely shine at passive defense, but passive defense itself won't hold up for long.

However, I can't see it being all that different than what we already have for passive defense on utility characters. We already can run skills like Aegis on offensive or utility characters for a passive defense, and while it's a strong tactic it doesn't make or break the backline. It's just extra help that reduces some of the stress on your defense, allowing each of their heals to count for that much more.

I think Ritualist defensive skills will fill a similar role. They'll have enough passive defense that they help ease the pressure off the real backline, but it is utility that you'll end up bringing them along for.

Byron · Apr 25, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

My concern with the skill is that if the easily interrupted part becomes relevant the skill becomes poor quickly.

No doubts there. I could see it perhaps replacing orison on a bar with ethereal/kiss/touch, landing its potential somewhere in between orison and other, with its 5 energy niceties still playing out. Then you still have touch for those convenient quick self-heals. Fathomably, there could be heal other on that bar as well, which could make for a potentially superior monk:

Ethereal light (Healing prayers)
Dwayna's Kiss(Healing prayers)
Heal Other(Healing prayers)
Healing Touch(Healing prayers)
<Utility heal> something like seed, heal party, infuse, a signet..
Energy drain{e} (Insipration Magic)
Insipred Hex (Insipration Magic)
Holy veil=HA (Monk other) ; Drain enchantment=GvG (Inspiration Magic)

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I don't think it's remotely playable on a boonprot, those guys are far too expensive to try and run without an energy elite.

In HA its probably possible with channeling, and thats where I dwell. But in GvG, it may be an energy disaster waiting to happen; that statement is somewhat true of all boon-prots though.

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But the speed is absolutely vital IMO. One Heal Other delivers to a target in .75 seconds what two crappy, 5 energy heals would deliver is 2.75 seconds. At no cost to energy efficiency.

You're certainly right for time efficiency. What i was trying to say is that, if you're at the point where you need that 10 energy spell to keep an ally alive, then it is because there is some spiking going on. If your prots and/or hates arent doing the job against the warrior spikes or whatever, then an infuse is going to be the same idea as a heal other: prevent sudden death. You said sometimes health just gets knocked down on a teammate fast, beyond your control, form blackout, KD, or what-have-you. I would see that as the only situation to require a heal other. Of course, your experience exponetially outweighs my own, but I'm still not convinced that heal other is a necessary skill. I see its utility, and I've played enough WoH in HA to know how valuable it could be in a pinch. But that 10 energy is still bugging me; its somewhere between 15-25% of your total energy pool spent on one person.

That's another reason to like that build I posted above, though.

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I'd guess the answer is that you're the spellbreaker bitch for HoH - and if that's the case, I'd have to ask what you're planning on actually healing people with if it's not Heal Other - another Orison turret?

Well, truth be told, I'm a lousy infuser, but I'm still some kind of healing bitch in HA. When I have to infuse, however, I pack kiss/infuse/touch/seed/breeze/inspired hex/holy veil/channeling. I said it: Breeze. Whats the math on that one for 15-16 in healing? 9x2x10 = 180, plus any DF. Say 200 or so. The advantage is the pips going, the disadvantage is it can be stripped. The advantage is it can be targeted on self, the disadvantage is its not instant(but thats what we have infuse for). It is spectacular for kiters. But thats a big digression.

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Well I will grant you that if you're playing monk and sitting there waiting for damage to arrive so that you can heal it, then it probably doesn't make a lick of difference what heals you have on your bar.

Well, that was my point about heal other. I can see other being useful in the chaos of battle, of course, but to take your argument to a new and interesting level:

1)Okay, I got 15 energy and climbing now.
2)Okay, Joe-Joe is at about 2/3 health, ready orison!
3)Sh*t! John-John just got nailed below half health! <Heal other> Whoo, that was close.
4)Sh*t! Signet of Weariness!
5)Joe-Joe got Evis-> Exec and is at 10 health. John-John is still at full, and I cant do anything about it for 1.5 seconds. Joe-Joe dies from a wand.

Pretty specific eh? But nevertheless possible. E-denial can make a bad day worse, but especially so on a monk that would go for the big heal. There are advantages to both arguments here, I think. An orison would have been enough for John-John, and then there would have been enough energy for Joe-Joe to get a dwaynas kiss. I could have chosen to put an orison on John-John, but I'm thinking efficiency, so I maximized my heal other, to my downfall. I hope that makes my argument for heal other somewhat valid. I am not saying heal other is bad, hell no. I'm saying it isn't always the best option, despite all the efficiency and math.

Just another reason to run that build I posted above? Muhaha.

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Against a team that applies pressure you want to use it sparingly, because if energy is getting taxed Infusing is only going to make it worse.

Yes, due to the self-healing factor, infuse is more expensive than heal other. I didn't literally mean pack infuse instead of other, I meant that it's essentially accomplishing the same idea...but I already explained that above.

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The situation you're overlooking is *every non-spike team*. You know, the ones that deal lots of damage to people that you want to heal as efficiently as possible.

In that situation, IMveryHO, an orison or kiss may in fact be better, as I tried to show with my example above. In a perfect world, I think we can both agree on this point: Ideally, it's best to have both the 5-energy "junk" skills and heal other on the skillbar.

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You do understand that Orison of Healing is the least efficient healing skill in the entire healing line, and that you making some comment about energy being precious while advocating not using Heal Other just confuses the hell out of me?

Obviously not, hehe. I wouldn't have made the argument if thought it was as crappy as you seem to think it is. If you break it down to the math and the math alone, I'm sure heal other is the better option. But the game is ebb and flow, and demands more than just equations, yes? I'm not saying that it's better to lay out 2 orisons in the stead of a heal other, no. I am saying that heal other is a big investment that would very likely be more valuable split on two heals(ie, 2 5-energy heals). The real factor is the player's judgment as to which to use in the situation he/she is in.

Much more of this and we'll need a seperate thread...not that it's a bad thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ump

I think Blessed Light seems like a better utility to run most of the time than Word of Healing especially if you handle spikes with another skill (like Infuse Health).

Oh, I'd certainly agree if it weren't 10 energy and a 7 sec recharge. The removal factor is nice, but there are other skills that can do that more effectively and quickly. WoH is healing king.

Bah, I'll get to that Air of Enchantment deal later.

Ensign · Apr 25, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

On the topic of new monk elites, does air of enchantment interest anyone?

I don't know where, how, or by who, but Air of Enchantment is going to be abused. The amount of energy not only the user, but the entire team can get out of that thing is just too high to ignore. If you're just looking at a single character using it for himself it isn't going to be all that impressive, but that's not why it's so good. It's that several other teammates are going to be getting free energy out of your energy elite as well. Hence the effect of the skill is going to be more distributed and subtle, though potentially very, very strong if the team is built right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ump

To stay on topic, I think Blessed Light seems like a better utility to run most of the time than Word of Healing especially if you handle spikes with another skill (like Infuse Health).

Blessed Light is a tricky skill. The first thing to realize is that it's an elite hex removal skill. Using it to remove a condition without a hex is so inefficient that you shouldn't even consider doing it outside of emergency situations. Similarly the healing on its own is poor.

So let's look at what it does as a supercharged hex removal - in addition to taking off a hex, it will heal for 173 at 16 Divine Favor (including the bonus), and sometimes hit a condition as well. That makes it spendy, but definitely worth the cost if you can get the full benefit of that healing.

The thing that concerns me about the skill is how often you're going to be getting the full benefit of the skill. They don't just have to have a hex after all, but a hex and a significant chunk of missing health. At 10 energy you can't just use it like a hex removal and justify it as an elite. I don't think it's a skill that you're going to be able to use on recharge very often either, because, again, it's fairly situational in its usage. You'll probably have to wait a couple seconds after it recharges to get a good situation to use it fairly often, even against the teams where it will be good - and I'm not sure if it's worth an elite slot in that case.

In other words I like the effect, but I'm hesistant to put it on a character because I think it might be too narrow, and not do enough because of the recharge, to justify the use of an elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

You're certainly right for time efficiency. What i was trying to say is that, if you're at the point where you need that 10 energy spell to keep an ally alive, then it is because there is some spiking going on.

Not at all. I can simply put two warriors in someone's face, and Orison and friends won't be able to keep up. You simply cannot survive against any competent pressure team if your only options are slow inefficient heals, and infuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I would see that as the only situation to require a heal other.

Yes, Heal Other is only required in situations that actually kill people. In situations that normally do not kill people, even healing as weak as Orison may very well be enough to keep up. I personally am not willing to design my monks with the assumption that my opponent will be unable to kill people, however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

But that 10 energy is still bugging me; its somewhere between 15-25% of your total energy pool spent on one person.

Which of course is so much more than Orison into Kiss or some other chain of the bad heals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I said it: Breeze.

Well you should be shot if you're running it without an enchanting part. That said, it does have its advantages. It's very time efficient, not just for the healing-per-cast-time, but because when damage is predictable you can cast it early on during a beating and continue to heal once the damage mounts - similar in concept to degen enhancing normal damage on a target. It's naturally solid against heavy degen, and allows you to kite effectively while it works.

That said it has a lot of disadvantages as well. It is particularly poor with two healers in a build, as overhealing is already an issue there and the Breeze often ends up sitting on a guy at full health, making it horribly inefficient. Also, it is slow, so it cannot be used as one of your main heals. Do not overlook efficiency either - for all the time efficiency it provides it is not terribly energy efficient.

Because of that, while I like the skill, it is definitely a luxury on a bar that shouldn't be getting used too often. I'll run it if my bar is suitibly compressed, but if there are more important things that need to be fit in I wouldn't hesitate to drop it for a second. I think it is more useful in a two monk, rather than a 3 monk backline, where the healing is going to be more predictable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Well, that was my point about heal other. I can see other being useful in the chaos of battle, of course, but to take your argument to a new and interesting level

I'm sorry if this seems a bit harsh, but your complaint about Heal Other sounds something very similar to this: "damn, I don't understand how you guys can drive cars without limiters in them! Whenever I try to I end up going way too fast and crashing!" If you put stronger skills on your bar, yeah, you can run out of energy using them. So what? I don't see the logic in playing weaker, less flexible characters simply because they are harder to screw up.

Sure, I can understand giving a complete newbie a skill bar with training wheels, because what you're looking for there is a way to force him into a minimal standard of play. I think, though, that once you understand what you're doing well enough to design your own skill bars, idiot-proofing should no longer be a concern.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Just another reason to run that build I posted above? Muhaha.

The Kiss on that bar is superfluous. Also, without a Heal Party or Infuse Health I see no reason at all to run Energy Drain over Word of Healing. I guess I should just say that bar is poorly designed, and is indicitive of the author not really understanding why healers are any good in the first place.

Sorry. =/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

In a perfect world, I think we can both agree on this point: Ideally, it's best to have both the 5-energy "junk" skills and heal other on the skillbar.

I think you need a power heal and a garbage time heal on your bar. You need some other skill that heals a target as well, but the third heal should almost certainly be something much more specialized.

The only time Dwayna's Kiss and Orison of Healing belong on the same bar is when they're being used with aggressive Channeling abuse - that character almost certainly wants Word of Healing as well. Dwayna's and Orison on the same bar without Channeling is almost certainly a sign of incompetence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

If you break it down to the math and the math alone, I'm sure heal other is the better option. But the game is ebb and flow, and demands more than just equations, yes?

Of course. Which is why your argument makes no sense to me - why are you arguing that you shouldn't have a skill on your bar that reacts *very* well to unforseen situations, in favor of a *second* copy of a skill that is famous for how poorly it reacts to new situations?

I stand by my previous statement - Dwayna's Kiss plus Orison of Healing is the monk equivilent of riding a tricycle.

Peace,
-CxE

JR · Apr 25, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I stand by my previous statement - Dwayna's Kiss plus Orison of Healing is the monk equivilent of riding a tricycle.

That made me laugh so much that I just HAD to quote it.

Byron · Apr 26, 2006, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Which is why your argument makes no sense to me

I'm tempted to give up at this point. Maybe it's that I'm being misunderstood, maybe it's because I don't know what I'm talking about- more likely a combination of the two. But I should say that I am honored(?) that Ensign would take the time and effort to pick apart my argument, rather than simply dismiss it by saying, "Byron, you're a moron. No one listen to him." I think I'm learning something.

And now this little argument, if you can call it that, has turned into something bigger than one skill, IMHO. My experience comes mostly from Heroes Ascent. What's common there probably isn't common in GvG. We already know Ensign's contentions with HA, so that may be the underlying and real problem.

Personally, I'd really like to hear a third opinion, even though I'm 99% certain that all of Ensign's contentions will be upheld by that third party.

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You simply cannot survive against any competent pressure team if your only options are slow inefficient heals, and infuse.

Granted with all enthusiasm. Maybe my position needs further clarification: it isn't that heal other is inefficient. I've already happily conceded that, as you say, it is the second most effective one-target heal next to WoH. Heal other, of course, should be used when necessary, but puts the 10 energy investment into one target. Yes, it will heal that person for all of its cash value. But if it isn't spike to be worried about, then the 5-energy heal may have been the better choice. Certainly an orison will frustrate warrior pressure for enough time to make another decision, and if it doesn't, then it is a spike situation. (Heal other is .75s, orison is 1s. I know, it seems like a larger difference) Snapping out that 5-energy heal may have been the bad choice, but it does afford the option to make another heal on a different target, (or hell, the same target) and that different target may have been kept alive by your decision to save 5 energy on a heal. That was my "energy is precious" argument. Just because I don't like heal other doesn't mean I won't use it when necessary.

So what we're looking at isn't about skills, it's about monk philosophy. It could be that I am objectively wrong, but I still feel right in my argument from the pressure build perspective.

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Yes, Heal Other is only required in situations that actually kill people.

I thought this line was hilarious. The healer metagame seems to be a gauge of evaluating risks, so if the other team performs correctly, in essence, there should be no chance for you to heal, right? That said, heal other is probably the most frustrating heal from an enemy's perspective, and that factor alone may be worth endorsing it.

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Well you should be shot if you're running it without an enchanting part.

I'd think an enchating part to be standard equipment on a build with spell breaker. Oddly enough (!), I forgot to put SB on that bar. I must have lapsed into my typical WoH mode. SB should be there instead of veil. But yes, that 12 second breeze tastes much better than a 10 second one.

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If you put stronger skills on your bar, yeah, you can run out of energy using them.

Ensign, 17
Byron, 1

Sa-weet.

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The Kiss on that bar is superfluous.

That statement scared me for a moment, but ethereal light is a 5s recharge. So a second reliable small heal is, I feel, necessary, and kiss is nice in its specialty. Because of light's heal value, it can't be so easily discarded as a junk heal.

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I guess I should just say that bar is poorly designed, and is indicitive of the author not really understanding why healers are any good in the first place.

Ouch, my pride. If this is true, then I should probably quit GW right now. I'm not being sarcastic, either: what is the fundamental that I seem to be missing? Surely that is important.

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why are you arguing that you shouldn't have a skill on your bar that reacts *very* well to unforseen situations, in favor of a *second* copy of a skill that is famous for how poorly it reacts to new situations?

I don't recall saying that orison or kiss should replace heal other. I don't recall saying that I don't have heal other on my skillbar, either. Originally I had said that heal other would be replaced by ethereal light due to the energy factor- implying, if you will, that heal other does have a solid place in a healer build. But after this long-post swap, I'm having second thoughts about heal other being replaced at all.

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Dwayna's Kiss plus Orison of Healing is the monk equivilent of riding a tricycle.

Trike still gets you where your going, eh? I've seen a motorcycle with three wheels on the history channel.

Anyway, I've become curious now: Ensign, what is your healer build? Let's end this mystery.

icemonkey · Apr 26, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

hmm this is what i'm getting out of this

where you are comming from byron, the word, orison, kiss area is that its difficult to spend all your energy spamming these even if you throw a seed or something in there every so often, because of the cost and cast times. This also pretty much heals light-medium pressure well. This strikes you as energy efficient, regardless of whether it is the best heal/energy ratio

Ensign is saying, that its not efficient, heal other is, and you wont run out of energy anymore than your build would if you use it properly, the governer metaphore. also, that your bar is a hard to break bar, or idiot proofed as he said.
yes no?

Ensign vs Byron round 4
LETS GET IT ON!